Monica's Place - Reading Again - Nonconsentuality

[Eido]

I'm reading the Monica stories by Richard Alexander, again.  I read them all years ago, but I was discussing them with a friend and that kicked off the re-reading project.

The point, and I do have one, is that I was totally blown away by the NC scene with Stephen in the very first chapter. And not blown away in a nice way either.

I haven't been able to finish the chapter yet. What I probably did when I first read them was bleep over this scene.  Which is my first question: who among you skips challenging scenes to get past them and find out what happens later?

My second questions are: what level of nonconsent are you comfortable with and what did you think of the scene in Monica's Place?

Thanks,
Eido

[AmyAmy]

Are you talking about the "The Initiation"?

Is it a confronting scene at the end? I would say not.

I would guess there is enough undercutting to make it just a little edgy without being disturbing. The setup lets us know it's all a game, that everybody there is consenting, that fun and safety are important issues. The protagonist's reactions suggest that he's enjoying himself to an extent. Then, in the next chapter, we're carefully assured that he enjoyed it and is not even slightly frightened.

It makes sense that if our protagonist doesn't want to continue, he'd run a mile at the start of chapter two, but he doesn't. He wants to be there.

Of course, if you skimmed a lot of the preamble, you might not have taken in the detail that gives the reader a sense of safety and confidence that nothing bad will happen, even when the protagonist is anxious at times, pushing limits at others.

Let's compare it to a post on the front page of the Plaza right now: A Weekend at the Club.

WatC is one-hundred-percent non-consensual. There's rape, torture, more torture, physical torture, psychological abuse, methodical destruction of human beings that reduces them to objects, and the observers treat it as a joke. As well as gloating bad guys, there's a consistent subtext that women are inferior creatures, barely human, and deserving of abuse. There's ceaseless and manifest injustice. I could go on and on for paragraphs describing just how nasty the events in that story and its companion parts are.

Now it's a tricky question, does the jaunty, light-hearted style of the narrator undercut those horrors, or add to them? What is the author's intent? Is it to shock, to titillate, or educate? Is there any art there, any genuine illumination of the human condition, or some complex idea, that provokes us to thought or fresh emotion? Is the author actually aware of the subtle attacks on women embedded in the text? And if they are, why did they put them there?

Personally, I found the entire mini-series extremely confronting; at its heart is a subtle but incessant reiteration that the role of women is to gratify men. Even the kleptocrat princess, or whatever she's supposed to, be derives her power from her father, not from her own agency.

I don't believe the author intended the needling sexism. I really hope he didn't, but for me, it was there, and it made me quite upset with it. (You can probably tell). Even so, I gritted my teeth and kept on going, searching for a redeeming quality. However, I believe the author intended the other things, and didn't mean to glorify them, but at times seems to be a little too ambiguous on that count.

After reading all six stories, albeit with some skimming, ultimately the thing that impressed me was the author's broad vision. Rarely have I seen such a range of cruelty and debasement packed into so few pages. There is writing skill there, imagination, even vision, but it's hard to call it art, and it's too close to inducing vomit to be erotica.

As a kind of horror story it certainly works. I was horrified alright, and horror has its role. I'm certainly in no position to criticize it as a genre.

If I was to speculate charitably, I'd say the author is attempting to show us the consequences of unfettered privilege. But if you finish reading it and find yourself thinking it was fun, or erotic, you probably need to recalibrate your standards of morality. I'd like to dream that most readers will be deeply sickened by it, and that the author intended that.

The only defense of it as erotica, is that many readers will identify with the victims, but there will always be those that don't. The potential fans of it that might "get the wrong end of the stick" are the sort of people that make everyone else feel unsafe.

Or am I the one who has the wrong end of it?

Either way, the first chapter of the Monica series was, for me, not confronting, Weekend at the Club, very confronting. It was like taking a drink from your tea just as spider falls into it. Then realizing the spider was carrying babies, and they're in your mouth.

But being confronted with something you don't like is a challenge, not a misfortune. I'd rather be revolted than bored, rather be horrified than disinterested. If we only ever read things that reaffirm our views, messages that reassure us all is well and confirm our existing bias, then we cannot extend our understanding, or tolerance. If we narrow our experience, we condemn ourselves to recycling the best of our past until it is washed out and gray, valueless tatters of a bland existence.

Personally, I'm prepared to struggle through almost anything, and I'm not afraid to judge it harshly afterwards. There's a reward though, if I hadn't endured Thundrshark and Paladin, I wouldn't ever have written a word on the plaza. But I did read them - the stuff of nightmares - and I set out to write a kind of counter-argument to them, an invitation to consider that when we let things like that into our heads we always pay a price.

Weekend at the Club undercuts itself, reminds us it's not real, reassures us it's just a story, but even so you can't have events like that without being unsettling.

As for those who think my comments on the sexism in it unfair, or not constructive, I'm happy to explain my position in more detail if need be - to be as constructive as I can. It's a nuanced issue, and I can see many will disagree with me. I believe the author was well intentioned, but for me, in that narrow area, intentions did not equate to results.

In terms of writing craft, both Monica and Weekend are skillfully executed, and I appreciate the enormous effort that must have gone into both. Both labors of love, both diligently executed. I appreciate both. (The effort in the Monica series is nothing short of terrifying. Does anyone know how many words it adds up to?)

[Eido]

Wow, AmyAmy, you are going to make me think and read to continue this discussion.  I appreciate the depth and detail of your reply.

I am responding now to the two immediate questions you asked. More discussion to follow after others have had a chance to chime in, and I have had a chance to read, or attempt to read, WatC.

Yes, I am referring to the climactic scene of Chap 1, The Initiation, as the scene I had problems reading in one chunk.

No, I didn't skim the preamble. My inclination is to skim the parts that make me uncomfortable, not the parts that set up the plot or characters. I don't skip the mundane parts to get to the 'good stuff.''

Thanks again,
Eido

[MaxRoper]

This is a very interesting and important topic. I glad to see something of substance being discussed as it seemed the Forum was sinking into obscurity with little recent input.

In theory I have little interest in n/c stories. I much prefer consensual, loving use of bondage as an enhancement to vanilla lovemaking. That said, I understand that such stories can become boring rather quickly and I readily admit to enjoying some things that are a little darker. For instance Uto has several stories on the Plaza that are about kidnapping and ransom with the possibility of the captive(s) being sold into slavery if the demands aren't met. I am usually adamantly opposed to the use of "the slavers" as a plot device but for some reason I suspend that when reading Uto's tales. I can't explain why, except perhaps because the writing is well done and, even though they are usually tied up and in serious trouble, the captives are seldom seriously mistreated and are in fact treated well considering their circumstances.

I got about two paragraphs into A Weekend At The Club. It was obviously not a tale that spoke to my interests so I didn't find out about the things that AmyAmy mentioned. To be honest, I actually enjoy no more than 10% of what's posted here but am very much in favor of *almost* everything regardless of how well it meets my interests because I know there are as many tastes as there are readers.

I do NOT appreciate anything that's misogynistic or bigoted in any way and I have little use for non-consensual pain and humiliation. I don't write to complain about such things.  I just stop reading.

Thanks Eido for starting this and AmyAmy for your insightful comments.

Max

[Eido]

Thanks for adding to the discussion, Max.

I read the first Weekend at the Club story. I found it less disturbing than much of the non-consentual action in the Monica stories. I think the narrator's travel monologue style rendered the work more horrifically absurd, or absurdly horrific, than challenging.  Still disturbing at face value, like attending a seminar by Mengele. Also, I have no rubber fetish at all, so I had a hard time connecting to the work at that level.

Although history provides us with no shortage of genuinely sadistic human monstosities, I find it hard to envision them gathering for light hearted torture and degradation of their victims.

The first person viewpoint in the particularly challenging Monica chapters makes the characters more relatable to me. It doesn't hurt that I'm also a guy in a technical profession, so I have some built in sympathies for Steven. The latter chapters with Shannen are even more challenging, to me, despite the therapeutic intentions of the torture. That's why I never let my shrink behind me

I did not find Chapter 1, The Initiation, to be wholly consentual. There was ambiguity and ambivalence sufficient to leave me thoroughly squicked until Chapter 2, which then totally blew my mind. Steven was only vaguely informed of his duties to 'test' his work. No explanation of his obligations was given, no opportunity to back out, no safeword. He was beaten, tortured, and violated despite his several attempts to resist. That he vacillated between grudging acceptance and genuine fear is hardly reassuring or suggestive of a consenting relationship.  If he had burned the place down himself after packing his bags and leaving the next morning, I would have completely accepted that reaction.

Reading between the lines, which I am not so good at, one could speculate that he has the hots for Monica, bad, that he is certainly not opposed to a secure job, and that yes, after all the abuse has soaked in, he finds he has a thing for it.

Knowing the end, which I will not reveal here just in case one of our gentle readers has not gotten that far , I think it is even more interesting to go back and read the beginning again. What if, what if, what if, as though the characters were actually real. That is the accomplishment of the Monica stories, creating characters that are relatable.

Plus, the characters in Monica have some redeeming qualities, unlike those in WatC

The comparison of Monica's Place and WatC is like 'Cujo' vs 'It'  One is a scene that is to me imaginable, the other is so far out that although scary, is not going to keep me up at night.

I would love to discuss sexism in BDSM-XYZ writing, but that is a topic meriting its own thread. Feel free to get it going.

Eido

[loras pa6]

I know what you mean by the "What-ifs" I too did that and tried to figure where Richard was taking things. (I waited forever for the keys that Steven hid earlier in Monica's Revenge to come into play before the end of that story.)

I kinda brushed off the N/C amongst the 'BilboesTeam' as more of a reluctance to be the bottom because of the trust and care they showed one another. Yes Steven may not have wanted to be tied many a times by the women, but it was stated there was always a safeword in the team, and with their paying clients, that he could have used most of the time if they went too far for him. (Except for maybe Chapter 20/21)

That being said there was surely a lot of true N/C between them and their enemies (both receiving and delivering) that go to the plot as any good DID story of old, as well as retribution. And there was of course the scenes where they were paid to kidnap Shannen as you mentioned, as well as the twins.

I myself am not fond of the straight out 'bind and rape' stories but when there is truly more to the story I can often see past that issue.

[AmyAmy]

I certainly agree that the tone of Weekend helps to distance the reader and stops it being as horrible as it might have been, however, as far as the scenarios go, it's getting harder to dismiss it as an absurdity than it used to be.

Whether or not you believe everything claimed about Epstein, there is little doubt that he had both the means, motivation and track record to have kept a harem of underage sex-slaves on his private property, recruited from runaways arriving at the bus-terminal. More than one woman has testified to being complicit in the recruitment of these victims.

Similarly, when I first started reading stories of abduction and enslavement, there were zero (or close to zero) examples of it having happened in real life. Now there are all too many, and only recently we have had "Wolf Creek" style attacks on backpackers in Australia.

Make no mistake, this stuff is not a joke. While all the evidence points to a negative correlation between reading this kind of fiction and actually acting on it, we also have to face ever increasing distortion/invention of the "facts" to support far-right faith based agendas (and I don't specifically mean religious, just that these people prefer to privilege their beliefs over the truth).

It seems to me only a short step before the kind of fiction found on the Plaza is demonized by populist journalists, and intentionally conflated with the kind of extreme hard-core sexism-racism-violence-torture based fiction found on some other sites.

While I personally write stories that are frequently cautionary, I still find this looming threat, and the current political climate, a chilling discouragement to writing. I fear we are headed towards increasing censorship, increasing vilification, increasing racism, increasing sexism, and a normalization of abuse and bullying, that starts not just with the president of the US, but with leaders all around the world who believe that a culture of fear helps them enrich and empower themselves at the expense of democracy. While it was ever the case that such people existed, and terrorized and murdered those who might expose them, the difference is that such powerful figures are now able to wield massive influence worldwide on the internet, and have largely succeeded in numbing our spirits, and normalizing our responses to such actions.

So, to get back on point. I don't find Weekend the cheery absurdity that I might have found it a decade ago. I think if we were to hear that some powerful businessmen, or politicians were doing this sort of thing, it would simply be brushed off as "fake news" that has been "blown out of proportion".

They would get away with it.

They would insist that the victims consented, that it never happened, that they never went there, that they went but didn't indulge, that the victims are liars seeking attention, and that it's all a plot by their opponents to discredit them, all at once, in a chaos of self-contradictory lies. And the truth would be drowned out by their shrill tweeting, their money, and their ability to buy people to tell counter-stories.

At least, that is what I fear. So I'm sorry, that sort of story just isn't funny or absurd any longer.

[Arkane]

I'm reading the Monica stories by Richard Alexander, again.  ...........
The point, and I do have one, is that I was totally blown away by the NC scene with Stephen in the very first chapter. And not blown away in a nice way either.
...........
My second questions are: what level of nonconsent are you comfortable with and what did you think of the scene in Monica's Place?

Thanks,
Eido

I mostly skip disgusting and boring stuff. Obviously what is boring and/or disgusting for me could not be so bad for another reader. Anyway, I have no problems with NC, the important thing for me is to make something good with what you write. Sexy, exciting, and so on. The range of fetishes and tastes is enormous so I think it's important not to be judgemental. But on the other hand to write the "extreme" is not a guarantee to write something good.

It's difficult for me to give a criticism about the Monica serie because I read it years ago.
I don't remember the scene you're citing so I just can speak in wide terms.
At first this story was exciting, harsh scenes included. Then it became boring and repetitive, and it seemed to me that the author felt the need to up the ante continuously, to increase the tortures and sufferances, but it didn't make effect (to me).
I don't remember where I stopped, but I didn't read the whole serie.

[loras pa6]

At first this story was exciting, harsh scenes included. Then it became boring and repetitive, and it seemed to me that the author felt the need to up the ante continuously, to increase the tortures and sufferances, but it didn't make effect (to me).
I don't remember where I stopped, but I didn't read the whole serie.

If I had my guess you probably made it as far as Monica's Travels (World tour from Australia to Los Angeles or Monica & the Black Fortress (set mostly in India). It was these two stories that began the more prominent 'darker' storyline that lasted through the end of the series.

[Arkane]

If I had my guess you probably made it as far as Monica's Travels (World tour from Australia to Los Angeles or Monica & the Black Fortress (set mostly in India). It was these two stories that began the more prominent 'darker' storyline that lasted through the end of the series.

I really don't know, and sure "extreme" and "darkness" are two elements in which some authors dive too often... but I don't care about morality of the story, if the story is good.

Personally I hate when the bad guys win or they are not punished, but this is a fact of life.

[Eido]

Thus ends my attempt to reread what I thought was a favorite story here.  This has been a strange and disconcerting experience. Since this thread seems to have run its course, I will digress from the original questions a bit.

Based on my utterly flawed recollection, I would have described the Monica stories as erotically charged and exciting, starting out light hearted and progressing into grimness as the series continued.

I still found them well written and compellingly detailed, but either because of the passing of years, or my tendency to skim uncomfortable passages, or just my memory, my recent reading was of an entirely different, and considerably darker story from the outset.

Monica is a broken person.  I found myself wondering what could have happened to her in those 15 years Steven Reynolds referred to that could have so messed her up.

I find Steven's ambiguity and ambivalence at the situations he finds himself in a little difficult to swallow. Maybe that's the difference between 30 and 50+?

Don't get me started on Shannen and the twins.

Back to Monica. At first she seems little different from villain Warren. They are certainly cut from the same cloth. In a way, the whole tale boils down to the very slight difference between those two characters and how it grows over time, with Steven and the other Bilboes denizens cast in the role of observers, a collective Ishmael, as it were.

Spoiler alert.

Stop reading now

If you don't want me to burn the end.

You were warned.

That Monica dies at the end and all her works are laid waste balances the scales for all the misery she has dealt out.  I don't think it was unplanned that Warren appears early in the 1st book and at the end of the last. He is the cautionary tale, the fate that Monica manages to barely avoid.

As far as the level of nc in this work, I will remain in disagreement with some of my fellow readers. I found the nc in Monica's tales to be almost unbearable. The casual cruelty with which she treats her employees and supposed friends, and with which they treat each other is not, in my opinion, excusable. And the better living through bondage intervention scenes were even worse.

This experience has been a real shock to me, at a visceral level. As they say, Your Mileage May Vary.

Eido

[AmyAmy]

Personally, years later, I remember little about Monica's place, except that it was very long, and somewhat repetitive.

I don't doubt that Eido's assessment of its darkness is on the mark.

Dark/harsh stories are still appearing on the plaza of course. When I commented on Monica's place, I was only speaking about the first chapter, and that Weekend At The Club was darker (than that first chapter) but hid it under a jaunty tone that left me uncomfortable. Did that flippant narrator make all those horrible events fine? I don't think it did. But darkness isn't bad in itself, it depends on what else the story has to say.

There are many stories, that you could call absurd, but which are nonetheless extremely nasty. With things that are happening now, much of what used to be silly fantasy starts to sound faintly plausible. I think that makes some of those old fantasies read as pure creepy, now we know that similar things actually happen.

A theme that especially revolts me, is when slaves are "bred" as part of a story. The authors of these nausea inducing tracts pretty-much always allude to the offspring being brought up in slavery, which strikes me as pedophilia by stealth. From the way those things are written, it's plain the authors think that child abuse is titillating, and they make a point of drawing attention to it.

There's enough vileness inflicted on children in the real world without having to make it up, whether they're being beaten half-to-death so we can have cheap chocolate, conscripted into child armies so we can have cheap materials for electronic gadgets, or simply starving in camps in Libya.

Censorship never fixed anything, but the idea that somebody is getting off on those stories, isn't it enough to make a reasonable person weep? Literally, not metaphorically. I feel soiled even describing them. When I chance across that trope, introduced without warning of course, I find myself wishing that such stories were not on the plaza where I might chance on them. If such stories are to be permitted here, I wish they could have their own section, so I could never read it. Fortunately, I know to avoid certain authors now, but what about the people who don't and wish they did?

[rbbral]

I only occasionally scroll the forum, but came upon this thread that brings into the discussion one of my stories, Weekend at the Club, and perhaps also the connected story, Man-Woman-Pony. I appreciate that the majority of the thread relates to Monica's Place (which I haven't read) but i seem to have been drawn into the conversation as well, and therefore I feel that perhaps I owe an explanation, although I feel not an apology or defense.

I haven't read Richard Alexander, so can only comment on the references to my stories. It is easy to dismiss all these comments with "it's a fantasy, for god's sake, can't you see that, get over it" but I think legitimate topics are raised, and I have to say it is something I think about quite a lot. On occasion I have skimmed some of my old stories and sometimes my reaction is, "grief, did I write this?" Where it all comes from, I don't know. I have a normal life (does that make all this even more worrying?) married 25 odd years to a wife who will join me in rubber and bondage role play, and assures me enjoys it. She is aware of my writing, and views it as that, fiction/fantasy, whatever you will think of that.

One concern I have about this thread is the possible correlation (I may have interpreted wrongly, and I'm sure I will be advised if I have) that the reader(s) sees between what I, and others, write, and some of the horrors that are happening in the world now, slave labour, abductions, kidnappings, torture and murder, and political fallout - I'm not sure i follow that thread, so I won't go on. For what it is worth, some will say not much, I see no, or very little correlation between these fictions, and the really repulsive, horrific events that we can read or see on TV almost daily. Some sick lunatic may have viewed hard porn before committing his atrocities but the more pertinent question is would he have committed them anyway? And that debate will continue, I'm sure.

I do not believe we are living in a more violent time now than any other, and I have spent some time thinking about this. It is just, thanks to a few sick websites and even legitimate news stations, more accessible. We think the world is a more violent, horrible place than it has ever been, because we turn on our TV's and it is brought into our homes, every day, without break. But go back to Roman or Greek times (or let's be honest as soon as man lifted a rock) and see what man did to man there, and of course woman, it beggars description. Let's think about the Renaissance for a second, and the Borgias, or Shakespeare (have you read or seen Coriolanus, or even Titus Andronicus) or Webster (The Duchess of Malfi, for starters) and these weren't hidden websites, this was popular theatre, my, we have come a long way. People didn't watch Jacobean tragedies and then go out and imitate them, it was art that was reflecting society, as grim as it was then.

Over the years I have read JG Leathers, Gord, and Thundrshrk, and others - quite unforgiving stuff, absolutely, and AmyAmy yours too, and for me anyway, there was never a scintilla of a doubt that these were fiction, no matter how "realistic" or unpleasant the scenarios might have been. Before that I would read Eneg, Stanton, John Willie (all pure fantasy) and Atomage, Skin Two, Marquis etc etc. If someone else interprets these stories otherwise and chooses to enact some vile crime, then that should not be laid at the feet of the author. I do thumb through other stories on Gromet, most of which I don't get to the end, for one reason or another. Not to my taste, it doesn't matter, I move on. The words stones and glass houses come to mind.

But to be serious, I wonder, should Stephen King, James Herbert or Clive Barker et al feel responsible in some way for the horrors inflicted on humanity in the real world, or Bret Easton Ellis, when he published American Psycho? Some of that fiction is a lot grimmer than the stories on this site, they really give me the shakes. and I am sure there are thousands of books out there - horror, crime, whatever - far worse. I am old enough to remember the furor over Anthony Burgess' Clockwork Orange, which went pretty well unnoticed as a novel until Stanley Kubrick's film. In the 60's (and sadly still now) Britain had enough gangs of teenage thugs long before this film was released, and after it they just chose to don bowler hats and white boiler suits to carry of their same violent activities. They just thought they looked cool. Abduction, torture, murder are nightly fare on TV now, like it or not. Scandinavian noir, British and American TV and films hold very little back, at least it seems to me. Now, not for one second am I trying to compare myself with these writers, of course not.

Allow me another observation, albeit a personal one. Maybe I saw, or didn't, an accusation of misogyny in my stories. If you would care, or bother, to skim my stories you will see that the male is at the receiving end just as much as the female. I am not compiling a defense, it's just a fact. I treat both equally unfairly. Very quickly, if you wish, check "My Life", "Deadlier Than The Male", "More Than He Bargained For", "Predator and Prey" or "From Top to Bottom" and you'll see the male doesn't always come out on top. Try "Tom's Traumatic Transformation" and "Frankie's Fable" which will not appeal to all, or even many, and again it is the male that is very much at the receiving end here.

Another comment refers to the "joviality" in some of my stories. Well, so many of the stories on this site are grim and dire, serious and glum, why not a bit of tongue in cheek? Why not a bit of sly irony or dry humour. This is after all a story - a fantasy - and yes, you really have to get over that hump. By injecting a bit of humour, I am not saying that all the horrors in the real world should be viewed in the same frivolous manner, of course not. But you have to be able to acknowledge the difference between a story (however horrific you may feel it is) and the world at large (even more horrific sometimes).

I have said more than enough, and taken far too long in saying it, so I leave you to continue the debate.

[AmyAmy]

First off, I think it's a good thing that Rbbral responded and made his points, and I agree that most of them are very good points.

I appreciate him taking the time to comment, and doing so politely and intelligently. It's never been something to be counted on in the Internet, and it shouldn't be taken lightly.


I wasn't suggesting that reading stories makes people go out and copy them, or something like that. I tried to be clear about that, but I don't think it hurts to reiterate either.

But there are some areas where I am at odds with Rbrall. For years now, I've enjoyed his stories, and they have all been entertaining, and written with care and attention far above the average, but climates change.

As has been pointed out, perhaps the world is no more violent than it ever was, but I don't believe that argument is either provable, or has meaning, because how do we measure it? I don't think it leads anywhere useful to say it is more or less violent by some measure. However, that argument brings up a point I was trying to make, and perhaps it's unfair I used Rbbral to do it.

There are far more people on the planet than ever before. Compared to Roman times, there are orders more people. So actually there are likely more individual acts of violence and abuse than in the past.

In the relatively lawful developed countries, our baseline for violence is set low, we see slapping or beating as significant violence. Add to that, we have the ability to hear about events around the world in a way that was previously impossible. Maybe not last year, but compared to before invention of the telegraph. So, comparing our time to the Roman empire, or the medieval period, when people would be murdered in excruciating ways to make a point, it's not meaningful. You can't make violence less bad by saying it has gone up or down with respect to history. But I think I understand why Rbbral brought this up, it was because I alluded to changes in the social and political climate being relevant to how stories are interpreted.

We can be very sensitive to violence and acts we might call evil, especially if we do not allow ourselves to become numb. That hasn't changed.

But, when I read stories like Weekend, a decade ago, they were in a realm of their own, totally detached from reality. That is much less true now. Due to a combination of media reporting, successful policing, and actual horrible acts, we are now well aware that things like those in the stories are happening, or may be happening, or may likely happen. They have lost their fantastic gloss and become tainted with the dirt and slime of reality.

For me, that has stopped those stories being fun. Also, I think we can do more, and set the bar higher. When a story addresses such topics, it should have something to say. Just throwing the events "out there" for our amusement isn't as harmless an act as it once was, because whether we want it or not, those stories now remind us of real events. And that connection ties the two things together conceptually, and in our perception, so they become intertwined.

Some kinds of stories always had the ability to shock, and Thundrshark is right up there on the list. Is he a misogynist? Did those stories reflect a contempt and hatred for women? I don't know. Perhaps Mr. Thundrshark is a lovely person outside his stories. But, as it happens, I have reason to suspect otherwise. But let's ignore my suspicions, I'm not judging the person, I'm judging the product, and in his case, the product is all about women, and only women, being crushed, destroyed, humiliated and objectified, against their will.

Rbbral is no Thundrshark or Paladin, and I appreciate he feels a bit put upon geting dragged into this. I do have some issues with his recent work, but belabouring those issues makes them seem bigger than they are. I'm not arguing he should stop, or that there isn't an eager audience for his stories.


What would redeem any shocking tale, is artistic value. If that story can make us think about new questions, or see a new way of looking at things; if it can make us think at all, then it has some value.

But if it doesn't, isn't it just nasty porn that would offend almost anyone?


What I'm saying about climate, is that it has moved the shock point. Stories that were once easily dismissed as absurd don't seem absurd any more. It has nothing to do with the measure of actual violence in the world, but with the reader's perception of it. Once you know things are happening, you can't forget them, and you can't enjoy stories about them as much either, not without some additional quality. When I read Prayers for the Stolen it wasn't exactly fun, but it felt worthwhile because it informed me about something, and created a feeling of connection to a person I wouldn't expect to feel connected to, and thus made me think very hard about that kind of situation. Most stories on the plaza don't aspire to that, but we can at least be honest about what they are.

I have put some nasty things in stories, but they were there for a reason, not to titillate, but to make people think. Perhaps I failed for many people, and to them it was just horrible. I believe I've shown non-consensual events, often - but I believe it would take an act of supreme self-delusion to come away from those accounts with the impression that non-consensual sex is not harmful to both parties.

There is a repeating conceit in my stories: that what you read, what you fantasize, what you do, all make a difference to who you are, in differing degrees. If you continually expose yourself to extreme violence in stories, you may become numb to it. It won't make you go out and do those things, but can kill a part of you, and make a new part, that the old you might not have liked very much. But after you've done it, there's no way back, only forward.

But I'm prepared to admit. It may only be me that has changed.