Plaza Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve Spandex on February 07, 2016, 06:58:09 am
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One of the Plaza's readers kindly emailed in, via Gromet, to inform me that my story "Long time Bound" http://www.selfbound.net/storieslr/longtimebound.html had been plagiarised on another website.
The new story had been retitled " A Weekend Like No Other" by someone calling themself "Amy Flanagan" and had been published on "Jeb's Adventure Bound" site. The story's narrator had been changed to a female, the character names had been changed, and a few passages altered, but essentially this was a word for word copy of my story.
I suppose in some ways I should be flattered that someone thought my story was so good that they claimed it as their own. But the fact that I had spent hours, days, weeks even, writing and rewriting this piece, only to have some parasitic lowlife 'steal' it is simply not on. (Especially as this was a partially true story, and therefore personal) >:(
I contacted the site involved, and in fairness, within 24 hours I had received an apology and the offending story had been removed.
I note, however, that this site also carries two other stories by "Amy Flanagan": "The Adventures of Agent Lisa" and "Not What I Intended". I would suggest that all writers on the Plaza take a quick look at these, just in case this dear little "Amy" character has stolen YOUR story as well!
And if "Amy" happens to read this (she must have got the story from the Plaza, as I haven't published it anywhere else) then I would request that she does the decent thing and contact me to explain herself (although I won't be holding my breath on that one!)
Anyway, just to let you know that I only write under the name Steve Spandex, so if you see anything on other sites that looks like they've been copied from my stories under other author names, then these are forgeries.
My sincere thanks to the reader who brought this to my attention, and thanks to Gromet for passing this on.
Has anyone else had similar problems?
Apologies for going on a bit, but as you can probably understand, I'm a bit pissed off about this. >:(
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And fair enough!
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Hello, I am the person who reported the plagiarism. Normally I am the type of person who lurks creepily in the background enjoying everyone's hard work, but when I saw what had happened I just couldn't let it pass. I used to write and was actually plagiarized myself once, it's horrible and I don't understand why, it's not like anyone gets paid for this.
But anyway, now I felt I had to join this forum to point out something else. The stories by friends page on Jeb's Adventure Bound site hasn't been updated in quite a while. If you go to the what's new page and do a page search for Amy Flanagan there are several other stories by her.
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Thank you to both of you for the heads up. I wonder how much of this happens to us at the plaza that we don't know about.
Jackie.
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Thanks, all, for bringing this to our attention. There's too much hard work involved with our creations to ignore something like this.
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I've had my stories republished on sites I never sent them to, but they always carried my Pen Name
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Well done Lightly !
Thanks for doing the right thing.
I hope all readers have the decency and kindness to report such finds to the original authors.
As Steve says, this is not a nice thing to happen.
But sadly not everyone has the same values as the rest of us.
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The more I think about it, the more certain I am that the other stories allegedly by "Amy Flanagan" must be stolen from someone.
I haven't actually read the stories in full, but they are of reasonable length and look to be well written. So why would a genuine author, who is quite capable of writing decent material, suddenly resort to pilfering and bastardising other peoples work? That doesn't make sense. I think they must all be dodgy.
I just hope that the true author of these gets to find out and has them removed too.
And once again, thank you Lightly for your vigilance.
Regards
Steve
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Copyscape might be helpful here guys: http://copyscape.com/
It searches the web for copies of text.
Best of luck finding the culprit. That is out of order.
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Hi, i was reading this post, and before this, i think amy flanagan was a good writter, i was Wrong! i like to go to jeb's website too, but after read this i try to find the deleted story to read by myself the changes but what i found is worst, now another person "Speedoslover" have the same title in other web. I dont even finish to read the fake story.
I really think Steve Spandex is the best.
I left the link for the stolen story.
http://wipipedia.org/index.php/Story:_A_Weekend_like_no_Other
Greethings.
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In this case I actually think Steven is wrong. When copying a story to the extent described it's not plagianrism, it's pure theft.
Plagiarism is when you get overly inspired by other peoples work and create your own work using themes, scenes, settings from the original work. As far as I can understand this is not the case here. If you as a writer realizes your work really is too close to the original story, you will of course honour the original and confess the inspiration. Sometimes, however, you may write a story not realising you in fact plagiarised.
When a story is rewritten just changing genders and names it's not plagiarism. You could say that translating is such an act as well - and if you do translate someones story, you must of course honour the original. But translations does have their place - in lots of situations even I find it difficult to follow descriptions in english and a danish translation would be of great interest.
You could well say that publishing a story on a website without the original authors consent (in fact the copyright owner - even if stories are published without anybody being paid) is stealing as well. And you'd technically be right. But if the writer is clearly spelled out, I wouldn't be too mad about it. Maybe I'd feel honoured by people wanting to redistribute a story of mine.
Rewriting a story the way described and not giving the rightful writer credit is truely lowlife and despicable. I fully understand Stevens emotions about it.
TeaSer
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pla·gia·rism
ˈplājəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: plagiarism; plural noun: plagiarisms
the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.
synonyms: copying, infringement of copyright, piracy, theft, stealing
What is Plagiarism? http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/what-is-plagiarism/ (http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/what-is-plagiarism/)
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Nearly all of the stories posted by Speedoslover are copied (with names changed) from stories posted by Amy Flanigan (including Steve's, but if the others were also plagiarized I didn't find it). I would hazard a guess that both posters are the same person.
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Firstly, thanks to Johhnyb for pointing out yet another stolen version of my story, this time on Wipipedia. I have now set the the wheels in motion to get this removed also.
Re the "Amy Flanagan" version on Jeb's Adventure Bound site: Jeb contacted "Amy" about this, and came back with the following:
"Amy expresses sincere regret; she made a serious mistake while under the influence of prescription drugs. She says that she will not be submitting any more to my site until she stops taking the drugs."
Those must be pretty potent drugs to turn you into a rampant plagiarist without you even knowing it! (I'm giving Jeb the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he's had the wool pulled over his eyes by "Amy" over this as well)
I get the feeling that this is merely the tip of the iceberg, and that there may be many more of our plagiarised stories out there.
Anyway, I actually logged on to my laptop in order to work on my latest story, but nearly two hours later I haven't got around to it, as I've had to sort this mess out again. So I'm not in the best frame of mind for creative writing at the moment.
Thanks for all your support in this matter.
Regards
Steve
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Just to keep everybody updated:
Wipipedia have now been in touch with me, and have deleted this second version of "A Weekend Like No Other" from their site.
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In the last couple of years on this forum, a member reported books on Amazon Kindle that were blatantly copied from stories on line just with a few details changed. They were removed after a number of complaints were sent to Amazon.
I remarked at the time that the internet is rife with this deplorable behavior and it is not just books. We all need to keep an eye out and help to protect our writers.
Gabrielle
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I have often wondered how widespread plagiarism is on the internet. I post my stories in the probably naive assumption that people are just going to read them and hopefully enjoy them, not steal them and take credit. I find writing hard work and spend put a lot of effort into it so it really pissed me off to hear about this incident. Using prescription drugs as an excuse seems a little lame. Despite not realizing what she was doing because of the medication she still managed to copy, edit and re-post the story. It doesn't sound like the drugs were messing her up too badly.
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I suppose that as soon as any of us publishes a story on the internet, we immediately leave ourselves open to this kind of thing. The only way to completely avoid our work being plagiarised is to never publish anything, and if we all took that stance, there would be no Gromets Plaza, or anywhere else to read the fantastic stories we all enjoy.
I imagine that theft of this kind is fairly rife. I only found out about my stories turning up in disguise elsewhere because someone recognised the story as being almost identical to mine and remembered where they'd read it. If you give the stolen story a new title, change the character names, and tweek certain details, how many people are going to know? And even if a story does look a bit familiar, unless you remember the original author's name, you might just think that author publishes his/her stories on more than one site for maximum exposure. And if you can't remember the original author's name, how are you going to let them know about it?
I'm not going to get paranoid about this, however. If I find out about any more of my stories credited to other writers, I'll do my best to get them removed. But I'm not going to waste valauble time (that could be better used concocting new stories) scrutinising the 'net for them.
And I agree completely with Maid2btied's thinking on the drugs excuse. Even I have to admit that the stolen story had been quite cleverly manipulated, and didn't seem like the work of someone out of their brain on chemical substances, prescription or otherwise.
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It happened to me !
A, now former, member of this community posted a story on the Plaza, which was too remarkably close in theme to be his original work. It was not a word for word copy, but the storyline was the same.
I wrote to him to say this was not acceptable, and all I got in return was swear words and insults.
As a moderator, I locked the story preventing it from being updated. He deleted it. Then he reposted it. So I deleted it. He has now decided to resign his membership. No loss there !
Plagiarism does not have to be an exact copy. If you look in Gromet's Writer's Guide (front page of the Plaza) it also includes story ideas. I accept some times it might be innocent, but if it is, then at least apologise if it was a misunderstanding, but his reactions point to the fact it was wholly deliberate.
Feel free to report such matters to me, Lobo, Trish or Gromet.
There are rules on this website. Let's play nicely and fairly with one another.
Daffy
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Well said daffy if i see something like that you can be sure you or the other's heae from me
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As I said above Daffy, I think this is just the tip of the iceberg, and there is a huge amount of this type of theft happening out there.
We all need to be extra vigilant
Steve
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Thanks Trash Girl and Steve for your support.
I received some more thoughts from another helpful source, which, without revealing his name, I shall share with you, as his point is also most valid.
He pointed out that we should not feel guilty to report or take action. If we don't, we are condoning this type of action, and that sends the wrong message and could encourage others to plagiarise stuff. The Plaza has hundreds of authors, all of whom would hate this to happen to them. After all, having thought of a story and taken the trouble to research it, draft and redraft it, and submit it; it is not unreasonable to expect our work to be kept safe.
Finally for those thinking of copying someone else's hard work, remember you are likely to upset quite a few of us big time. And it could cost you dear. You will be found out. And action will be taken against you.
Daffy
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I completely understand the anger of authors who have had their hard work stolen, it’s a wrong that should be recognized and corrected. I just hope we don’t overreact and quash inspiration.
I have a story on the Plaza that has original characters, but the ‘idea’ for the story came from a popular 1960’s television show, so is it plagiarism? In the strict definition, yes. I’ll be the first to admit I am motivated by the many great writers at the Plaza. One of my stories, ‘Surprise Inspection’, was inspired by the trash stories by Daffy Duck. My intent was not to copy, but to create an original story based on my interpretation of his excellent work. I hope Daffy is not offended.
Fordman
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If we all worried about where our ideas came from every time we wrote, then nothing would ever get written or published. We're all influenced by the books we read, the films and TV we watch etc., and no doubt some elements stick in our minds and get used in our stories, even if we can't consciously recall where we first got the idea from. I think this is fine, provided we don't take a complete story plot from somewhere else and use it in its entireity. If you just take one element from a much longer story and slip it in alongside your own ideas, then I don't see that as being too much of a problem.
The Plaza is, by its very nature, a specialist interest site, so you're bound (pun definitely intended) to have similar aspects crop up time after time.
Another thought for you Daffy. Although the person who stole your story is no longer on the Plaza, be aware that he may have changed the title, used another pen name, and posted it on another site. That's what happened with my story that was plagiarised.
Steve
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It is very honest of Fordman to say that; and I admire his honesty.
As I have never seen "Surprise Inspection", and it is not listed on this site; I am unable to comment on how I feel for I don't know what has been written.
In general, I know that 'copying is the greatest form of flattery' but plagiarism is a breach of copywrite; as all stories on this site are protected by copywrite.
Is taking inspiration the same as plagiarism ? That depends. If you wrote about garbage trucks, it is not, because @ 75% of trashcan stories have one. However, if you read a story where the hero escapes compaction by turning the garbage truck over on its roof; then it might be a bit much to write your own story and use the same means of escape, because that is clearly copying someone else's idea. Rest assured the amount of copying involved in the complaint of mine, is not just the same ending, it was the whole theme of the story, which was copied, just with some minor tweaks.
As for Steve's point about name changes and other sites: Maybe I am incorrect, but I think Gromet is able to see whether two or more names have the same IP address. This could highlight someone re-joining under another name. As for other sites, we can only really monitor this one. It is up to the other site(s) to have their own monitors. But there is no reason why we cannot bring a problem to their attention if they had not spotted it - just like you did Steve.
When in doubt, Fordman, I think Gromet's suggestion in the Writer's Guide is a good yardstick - if in doubt contact the original author who inspired you and have a chat before committing fingers to the keyboard. If the original author is happy, no harm done. If the original author is unhappy, problem averted. The original author might not like you copying xyz, but have no problem with you copying abc. It is about communication. I think a large part of the problem is that people do it sneakily, and then it looks underhand, even if it was not intended as such.
Indeed, authors can even collaborate and bounce ideas of each other. I have some written stories this way.
Better to make a friend than an enemy.
I hope that helps.
Daffy
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I only submit stories to the Plaza. ‘Surprise Inspection’ can be found in the Packaged Section.
http://www.packagedstories.net/storiessz/surpriseinspection.html
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i just read your story fordman it was good bit confusing at the end but i liked it
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Thank you Trash girl that was very kind.
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Hi Fordman,
I have read "Surprise Inspection", and have no problem with its originality whatsoever. We are cool.
You might what to mention to Gromet that your name does not appear in the author's index. I tried looking for you under A (in case numbers were put at the beginning), Z (in case numbers were put at the end), F (for Fordman) and S (for sixty-four) - I gave up looking after that..... The story title is not in the master story index either.
Daffy
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http://www.grometsplaza.net/author_s.html#64fordman
also listed under S = sixty-four between Sixth Dragon & Sketch Zeppelin and also in the featured authors menu on the left hand side column.
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Sorry Master ! I'll clean my spectacles better next time.
Did you like my suggestion about writing partnerships as a way to avoid plagiarism ?
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I've missed a few posts on this thread so maybe I'm rehashing a few others' points here but:
1. If you have enough thought to copy, change a few names and a title and post then you have enough thought to know what you're doing. End of story - no further discussion required/
2. I think most writers would be flattered if a new (or even an old writer) cited some inspiration from their work. In fact, I would encourage writers to say either at the start or the end that they were inspired by ... as it is also a neat stepping stone for the reader: 'Oh, I liked this story by ... and it was inspired by this story by ...' so they go and read it and continue to enjoy their time here.
3. As we don't get paid it is not a question of lost royalties or anything like that. It is simply about intellectual property. I get it, the creative process is hard and we all go through lean periods of times of disinterest. But, surely once you've been caught stealing ideas, nobody will ever believe an idea is yours ever again and that lack of credibility will likely hurt you should you ever have a good original idea.
And whilst I have not been the victim of plagiarism as far as I'm aware myself, I have been contacted (back when I used to write poetry) by somebody who wished to write a sequel to a narrative I'd written. They were really respectful and outlined exactly where they intended to take things and said they would give me the chance to read it first before they sent it off. I was really flattered that they loved what I'd written enough to write their own second part. If everyone was as respectful as this person was, I'm sure most, if not all authors would be happy to at least engage the discussion about further work.
That is all.
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I would like to add that Steve Spandex is the original victim which started this conversation, and he has been the voice of reason and common sense throughout. Thank you Steve.
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Thanks Fordman
Never been accused of 'common sense' before! I must be losing my touch!! ;D
But seriously though, I hope we don't have to hear too much more about this subject, but if any other incidents do turn up, I think we should all 'name and shame' via this thread on the Plaza Forum. That way, at least we can all keep a lookout for these culprits on other websites. Just make a note of the story and author, so that we can all keep our eyes open if they crop up again somewhere else. Sort of an 'offenders' register' if you like.
Steve
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As mentioned earlier there was an incident last year where a large number of stories from here were stolen by an individual and posted on Amazon for sale (and a few other sites).
When the S-storm from our end hit and the stories were removed I watched the thief rant on her blog about 'haters' getting *her* stories removed. This person didn't figure that someone would fight back.
I watch for stuff, I am blessed that I am friends with some models and 1 or 2 producers. I report, turn in and turn over.
I may not post much on the forum, and I suck as a writer so no stories from me, but I will back you up.
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From the wide assortment of different comments posted here, it appears most writers are not flattered as Maxine puts it, we are flipping angry.
But I accept the point made by Maxine that if a person wants to write a sequel, they should ask permission from the author, who might say 'yes' (but equally would be entitled to say "b*gger off" or words to that effect).
Yes, good communication can resolve things more peacefully. Part of the problem is that most offenders do it sneakily behind your back. So they probably KNOW they are doing wrong.
But most of the problem is that fact that if a writer has invested blood, sweat and tears in his/her creation, it is a cop out just to tweak it and then have the cheek to claim it as all your own work, when blatantly it is not.
A big thank you to all of you that agreed to report such things.
Authors don't get paid on this site. Readers pay nothing to use this site. So is it asking too much to watch our backs ? After all, if authors get fed up, we leave, you guys lose as well.
Daffy
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Daffy, I do agree with much of what's been said in this thread, but there is one aspect I do want to point out. In the past, I've seen 2 stories on the Plaza based on my own work. One was a sequel to the second Bad Bargain story, and one was centered on one reader's actions after reading First Hand History. Permission was not asked either time, but both authors were more than willing to clearly state the source of their ideas. In both cases, considering the quality of the work, as well as the respect both authors showed for the original work, I took both stories as a compliment to my own work. Asking permission is definitely preferred, but doing as these two writers did is a must. Show respect for the original story and characters, as well as the time and effort that went into creating the original. Of course, this is just my opinion on the matter, and there are at least as many opinions out there as there are people to express them, and none is inherently wrong, just different.
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Lobo,
I understand and respect your viewpoint.
I just feel that if our stories are covered by copywrite, then legally (as well as morally) the original author should be asked and has the last word on the matter, as it is their story after all.
Daffy
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Hi Lobo.
I believe the quote in your posting...
>and one was centered on one reader's actions after reading First Hand History. Permission was not asked either time, but both authors were more than willing to clearly state the source of their ideas.<
Was directed at my story 'Melanie's Mystery' for which I'd credited only Gromet's site rather than yourself.
For this I'd like to apologise.
>In both cases, considering the quality of the work, as well as the respect both authors showed for the original work, I took both stories as a compliment to my own work.<
Good, glad it met any expectations.
I know when we had the original 'how do you write' discussion on the old forum it was mentioned by myself that I'd originally written a sequal to somebody elses story. The Evil-Dolly 'Beauty in Repose'
That it is still one of my favourite tales says a lot, but it was also what got Wingco started.
I'd never dream of plagerising another person's stories but I guess there are some that sail close to the wind.
Kind Regards
Shelley.
Trapped in severe writers block while trying to finish the 'Water-Wheel' story, ironically that idea credited to a movie.
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From the preceding comments, it is obvious that there are a lot of grey areas in this plagiarism/inspiration debate, and that we are never going to come to a complete consensus on this issue. As I've said before within this debate, we are all inspired by the stories we read, and the films we watch etc. If someone wants to write a sequel to something they've seen on the Plaza, then so long as its a different story and not the same plot rehashed, then I don't think anyone can complain too much. It might be courteous to inform the original author, but not everyone will.
Recently on the BBC in the UK, there has been a series called 'Dickensian' which (I'm led to believe) is a sequence of stories using characters from Charles Dickens' novels but with new 'what happened next' storylines. Or in other words, a sequel. Whilst the purists might look down their noses at this, I haven't actually heard anyone shouting "plagiarism!!"
I think we need to concentrate on eliminating the real plagiarism, in which entire stories are taken by others and claimed as their own work, whether that be word for word, or merely plot theft.
I'm sure some will agree with me on this, whilst others will have differing opinions. But as I said at the start, I don't think we'll ever all totally agree where the line gets drawn between what's acceptable and what's not.
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With Dickens it may be plagiarism but it is not illegal, copyright expires 75 years after the death of the author and Dickins died 146 years ago in 1870. His work is now in the public domain. But I agree with Steve, I think we’ve killed this topic, and no one should cut-and-paste a story and call it their own nor should Agatha Christi claim every murder mystery writer stole from her. Everything between is up for debate.
I do think these things should be handled privately whenever possible, if someone thinks a story is questionable send the author a private email, or if a reader thinks a story violates the writing guidelines they can send a private email to Gromet expressing their concerns and let him address the issue.
The public forum should be for sharing thoughts and ideas among the community of kink and fetish enthusiasts that we are. Acting like a bunch of angry birds will only discourage readers from posting comments and new authors from submitting their work.
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Hi Steve,
A more well known example of sequels was Star Wars. Rumours have it when George Lucas filmed 4, 5, and 6, he made it clear, he wanted to do 1, 2,3, but gave permission for others to do 7 onwards.
The point is those who wrote sequels, books, etc. got permission from the original author.
As for grey areas: If it is word for word - clearly we all agree it is copying. If it is nearly word for word, with a just few minor tweaks - most would still agree it is copying. If it involves the same plot - most would also agree it is copying. When in doubt, simply ask the author ! A lot of stuff could be resolved amicably, I am sure, if people did this.
Hi 64Fordman,
I laughed out loud (in a good way) as your comment tickled me pink. It is also difficult to get permission from an original author if they're dead. Not sure what their estate might say. I ain't a legal beagle.
I hope that helps.
Daffy
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Hi Daffy,
I laughed out loud too in a good way. George Lucas got $4 billion dollars (3.56 Billion Euro). That buys a lot of permission.
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Hi Shelley,
It is true that, in the story, you only mentioned Gromet. I was thinking about a previous post in the old forum where I mentioned the same story. In your reply, you did say you got the idea from First Hand History. That was what I meant.
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Hi 64Fordman,
Again, I cannot fault your logic !
All the best,
Daffy
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Hi Steve,
A more well known example of sequels was Star Wars. Rumours have it when George Lucas filmed 4, 5, and 6, he made it clear, he wanted to do 1, 2,3, but gave permission for others to do 7 onwards.
The point is those who wrote sequels, books, etc. got permission from the original author.
As for grey areas: If it is word for word - clearly we all agree it is copying. If it is nearly word for word, with a just few minor tweaks - most would still agree it is copying. If it involves the same plot - most would also agree it is copying. When in doubt, simply ask the author ! A lot of stuff could be resolved amicably, I am sure, if people did this.
Hi 64Fordman,
I laughed out loud (in a good way) as your comment tickled me pink. It is also difficult to get permission from an original author if they're dead. Not sure what their estate might say. I ain't a legal beagle.
I hope that helps.
Daffy
Perhaps Star Wars was a bad example since he stole heavily from the works of French graphic novelists Jean Giraud and Jean-Claude Mézières without crediting them.
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I learn something new every day.
Thanks for the correction. Duly noted.
It proves how badly read am I !
Daffy
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Hello everyone!
I recently got word that another plaza member was concerned, as one of my stories (The Dice Game) has appeared on another site (Utopia Stories) under a different author name. I just wanted to make clear that I posted that story, and in this case there was NO plagiarism.
To reach a wider audience, I post many of my stories on other sites as well as the plaza, and I also use a different moniker elsewhere, Alex Makin. My name on the Plaza is a holdover that perhaps I should change as well to avoid this type of ambiguity.
Even so, THANK YOU. Thank you so much, because it's very encouraging to know that this community is vigilant about protecting our collective work.
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It is great to hear that the community keeps a vigil for the authors.
The authors really appreciate that.
Thanks !
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It was me that reported this to Gromet, as I've been very aware of this sort of thing going on since my story was stolen (twice). I'm glad that, in this instance, I was wrong!!
Stay vigilant everyone, and report anything you see that looks suspicious. It's better to report and find out that there's an innocent explanation, than not report it and let the bastards get away with stealing our work.
Steve
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A jury trial just ended between Oracle and Google. Oracle, maker of Java, sued Google for copying code from Oracle’s software. The jury sided with Google’s argument that the company had indeed copied code line-for-line, but not enough of it to make it wrong.
Google used to their advantage the current attitude, one they helped create, that everything is free.
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All property is theft. And other such bollocks !
By that reasoning, you did not want your Aston Martin car, so its mine now. You did not want your sexy wife, so she is mine now. And your house, and your model train set !
Stories posted on this site are 'protected by' copyright. What that means in a court of law, is a matter for the jury to decide. Each case is taken on its own merits, but in some instances case law applies.
Whether a person can steal another person's story and get away with it, is to some extent a mute point. As a community, the question we should be asking ourselves is, should we steal from others ?
If authors feel their work is not safe being posted on the Plaza because others steal; then they will simply stop giving new stories to Gromet.
When that happens, YOU THE READER also lose out.
It is therefore in YOUR interest to help the authors, whose stories you enjoy reading, to keep their stories safe.
If authors cannot trust the audience, we simply withdraw our works.
One author, Lady Jane, has already asked Gromet to remove all her stories.
If everyone did that, you folks would have nothing to read.
You complained when Gromet was away, that there was nothing new to read, so please help the authors by being on their side.
You help them, they continue to write. Win win.
You steal from them, they withdraw their stories from this site. Lose lose.
It is your choice !
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Daffy, I apologize for not being clear, I was trying to make a point without getting too political. I work with a person in his 20’s who thinks it’s wrong to take an entire music album, but if he only downloaded a couple of songs he shouldn’t have to pay for that. I asked him to try this experiment the next time he is in the supermarket. Find the store manager and say “I know the carton of eggs cost $3.99 but I only want two so I’ll just go ahead and take them.” See what happens next. Nothing is free.
That’s not true, he said, I get free shipping when I order from Amazon.
Let me explain it to you I said, the shipping cost is built into the price of the product, and then they tell you it’s free. That used to be called a scam. I owned a bakery. I didn’t advertise free decorating with every birthday cake purchase, it was included in the price.
My point is that many people have justified stealing, and companies (and politicians) who use the word free for things you are really paying for reinforce that justification. My co-worker above knew it was stealing to take the eggs, but the music was still okay. Some internet companies don’t have a problem with you stealing other people’s property as long as you’re seeing an ad for bathroom tissue while you’re doing it, or they are collecting data on you they can sell.
It’s no surprise considering how much theft goes on between corporations. The software for the Apple Macintosh computer was stolen from Xerox. The technology for digital cameras was stolen from Eastman Kodak. Companies used to pay for stealing when they got caught, not anymore. 75,000 people lost jobs at Kodak because a jury, made up of people like my co-worker, didn’t care how the camera in their cell phone got there.
Stealing a story is stealing, but it’s also a sign of a larger moral breakdown in society. Of course that’s just my opinion.
Sorry if I got too political.
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Hi Fordman,
Thanks for your clarification. We are actually saying the same thing here.
I agree nothing is free. I agree whole-heartedly that stealing is wrong.
I also agree that if members of society feel there is no punishment, then it is as if their actions are condoned.
My comments reinforce this by telling everyone, there is a consequence.
You piss off authors, they walk and take their stories with them, and write no more.
Once the users of this site realise the harm they cause and the reaction, may be they will think twice. I hope they do.
Stealing hurts people. Whether it is the Plaza authors or the employees of Eastman Kodak.
It breaks the 10 commandments and it breaks "Love thy neighbour as yourself", if you think about it.
(Sorry if I got too religious.)
Daffy
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I know this is a dead thread now, but I missed it when it was the hot new thing.
The kind of person who decides to copy a story, and try and conceal they've stolen it, probably doesn't care a jot what impact it has on others. They will not shed a single tear if the original author vanishes and never writes another tale. Instead, all they care about is funneling traffic to their paid ads site, or some other money-making scheme. You can be fairly sure that somewhere, somehow, money was at the bottom of this, and not a simple desire for attention.
After all, there pretty much isn't any attention to be had from writing an original story, let alone a copy, even if it's a Steve Spandex hit with a large readership and numerous highly-positive reviews, it's still not exactly stardom. I'm also guessing the copy didn't get quite the acclaim the original did, so there has to be some other motivation. If you want attention, I'm pretty sure that regular old trolling does a better job. As for the drugs excuse, it doesn't hold enough water to wash a hamster.
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Hi AmyAmy,
There's not really a dead thread, just one that has fallen to the back burner.
I have to agree with what you said about there having to be a monetary motivation behind the plagiarism of an originally uncompensated story.
It is, however, impossible to write an original story now days without it having some level of plagiarism in it. When I was in college, we had to run all of our papers through a plagiarism detection program. I had never copied anything in a word-for-word manner and always wrote my assignments in my own words, from my own thoughts. Usual result was about a 15% plagiarism return.
Stephen King once elaborated on their only being five different types of Horror writing, which he continued saying that if it was just down to original thought, there would only be ten to fifteen original horror titles and the rest could be considered some kind of copy of another author's original work.
I am in no way trying to defend a plagiarist in any form or fashion. A plagiarist is a thief, down-and-dirty. Especially one that merely changes names, locations, and title; slaps their own name as the author; and packages it as their own work. However, there are going to be times when someone writes an original thought that may come a little too close for comfort to someone else-es original work. The old adage of "Ten-thousand monkey's typing on ten-thousand typewriters for ten-thousand years, one will eventually write War and Peace."
Anyway, plagiarism is morally and legally wrong. Unfortunately, the people that actively participate in it really do not care about either.
Dana -- EPL
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I think the whole "it's impossible to write a new original story" thing to be very misleading. It smacks of a great illustrative idea, that there are common fundamental grooves based on culture that nearly all stories fall into, taken to a misleading extreme. But nothing prevents the possibility of a new groove forming. I'm not saying I know what it is, or can do it, but I do know that historically it's the people who say 'never' that usually wind up with egg on their face, sooner or later. Which is why I'm telling the universe here and now that I will NEVER, ever win the lottery :)
The original idea is so easily twisted into a fallacy, the false dichotomy that a story is either completely original or completely not. But derivative works can draw influence from one or many previous sources while also being original. There's also the danger of being reductionist, and stripping a work of its nuance so one can make sure it gets stuffed into one category or another.
And for what it's worth, EPL, I expect the plagiarism detector was never at zero because of common word strings like "it is" being present across many works, or even because it was comparing the paper to your own previously submitted work, and detecting your individual writing patterns.
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Hi Pensive,
The plagiarism checker would highlight which part of your paper it had found to fall into its plagiarism hit-list. It accounted for common usage of English transitional verbiage and common use language. It would normally hit on mine due to names and theme.
I had written a thesis on the Potato Famine in Ireland which had happened in the late 19th century, as one example, and because I did not change the name of the towns of Ireland, and, my surname being one of the thousands displaced and relocated to the US (hence, the reason I chose to write upon the subject), I was tagged for some plagiarism due to the fact that I wrote about the Potato Famine of Ireland using names of actual sufferer's. As this had been written about before, there was absolutely NO WAY to not get dinged in the plagiarism checker.
It took 25% or better to have a paper turned-out due to plagiarism through the checker. As all of our papers also had to cite peer-reviewed papers, there was also some plagiarism in the quotations, though thoroughly cited, for which I used.
I have sent in an original work, "Blackberry Patch", which I hope to be posted soon. However, after I sent it in, I stumbled across "The Raspberry Patch" by Otto Dix. I have not read Dix's story yet, but, I would imagine that since both types of berry bushes have vicious cats-claw type thorns, there will be similarities between the two. However, I can not plagiarize what I have not read nor even knew existed.
That was the point I was trying to make. Certain works about a common style will, inherently, cross the lines of absolute plagiarism even though the two writings where completely unknown by either author.
Hope to clarify,
Dana -- EPL
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I think we need to distinguish between two different types of plagiarism here. There's stealing ideas and writing your own narrative around that plot. Then there's copying someone else's work wholesale, word for word, apart from changing the title and a few names. It was the second of these that happened to me, which led me to start this thread. The former is harder to prove, the latter clearcut.
As to whether money was made on the back of my hard work, I have no evidence one way or the other.
Steve
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It was the second of these that happened to me, which led me to start this thread. The former is harder to prove, the latter clearcut.
What that other person, I can't say author as they did not write their own work, did to you Steve is no-doubt a direct violation of any description of plagiarism.
I just wanted to expand on how easy it is to plagiarize, by plagiarism standards. There are no stead-fast definitions of plagiarism, with the exception of what Steve encountered, and is open to interpretation based on the institute or regulatory principle for whom the work is presented. I just read that the top-most Universities have varying definitions of what defines plagiarism, all of which agree that direct usage without citation constitutes plagiarism but vary beyond that. I also found that one can self-plagiarize, something I have never even considered.
I am not trying to give myself an out to be able to write a story based on something else I have read...it is too simple just to ask the original author if I would be intruding on their original work. I'm just trying to show how easy it is for one author to claim another has plagiarized them, when, by definition, agreed upon most of the higher Universities, requires the second author to have knowledge of the previous work and intently set out to use the work as a basis for their own. All authorities agreed that intent and direct usage had to be present for plagiarism to be present; even if it is your own original work you are working from.
Dana -- EPL
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I apparently was guilty of copying a plot point. I wrote about an M/m encounter in "Meeting Strand" where one character promised no penetration, no oral, no hand jobs. Then he performed a "foot job". Later I read this exact thing in a story on the Plaza. I don't know if I read it before or if it was a case of "great minds thinking alike" but although it was completely inadvertent it certainly made me feel like a thief.
Not plagiarism per se but not a good feeling.
Max
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Steve, I am delighted to hear that you have had a degree of success dealing with these nasty plagiarist(s).
Thanks again to those readers who keep vigil and have the decency to report it.
I agree with Steve that there are two types of plagiarism: 1) wholesale copying except for changing a few names etc. and 2) stealing ideas around a narrative or plot (i.e. "inspired by" - I use the term loosely !)
I also agree with Steve that the second type is not so clearly defined. When in doubt, I would recommend that those 'inspired by' works of someone else, should contact the original writer to seek permission in writing 'sequels'. The original author may be flattered and say yes; or may feel it is too close to the original and say no.
I think a lot of genuine misunderstandings can be resolved this way.
Of course, deliberating stealing someone else's work or ideas, especially for profit, is clearly the actions of a nasty person.
It also raises the question of profit - this site the authors submit stories for free. Am I missing out on money ........ !!! LOL.
Daffy
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Hi Max,
Thanks for your honesty.
I think you have answered your own point. It was not your intent to use stuff from / similar to another author.
I don't think that is as harmful as deliberate action.
As for a 'foot job', I think that is fairly common.......
Daffy
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That's my point Max,
There are going to be times that someone has the same thought of another, hence, making promises of what they will not use but not promise not to use something else. It is simple for two people to have that same idea and not have knowledge of the other. Otherwise, you couldn't text someone without citing where you had heard it before.
There is no doubt that Steve Spandex was blatantly wronged, but, again, in order for it to be actual plagiarism, there must be some level of intent to claim someone elses idea or thought as your own.
I would only feel bad if I did it with intent, but, then again, I would have no moral value's to allow myself to feel bad to begin with.
Dana -- EPL
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Hi EPL,
If I understood your comment correctly, you were tagged for plagiarism because you used your own family name in a story about the Irish potato famine when your ancestors were actual victims of the potato famine?
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Yes Fordman,
I wrote a paper about the Potato Famine of Ireland which made my 3rd gen Grandfather move from Ireland to NYC during the Potato Famine where potatoes were decimated by a blight. When I wrote about my family, I was caught by a plagiarism checker for linking my family name to the Great Potato Famine of Ireland. I had no idea, nor had I found, any texts during my research which had specifically listed my surname, however, upon using it; it was obvious someone else had.
Dana -- EPL