Plaza Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Harry on September 11, 2016, 08:32:45 pm
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Hello fellow warriors of the words!
Of course readers opinions are more than welcomed too :)
I would like to ask you a question.
I got an idea for a story, or more accurate, the place where the story takes place, gave me the idea. Anyways, what do You think?
If a three part story contains about a handful of characters, which have any meaning to the story itself and the area where it would take place has, lets say multiple objects or buildings or whatever, what would be used in the story. (I´m babbling already, and that´s what my actual question is about.)
Can readers hold on reading ten pages of backgrounds?
When I create a lasting character, I like him/her to be a bit more than just him/her or a name. And with "objects" which will be used, if there are specifics or other things, what my messed up head tells me needs to be described, I just can´t ignore them. And now I have a side project, which may turn to be a bit more but after eight pages I´m still struggling to end the first part.
And if an added bonus to that minor inconvenience was, there would not be much "action" at that first part at all. Would it be too boring?
Thanks in advance
Harry
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Hi Harry,
You have asked the age old question of the writer. Where do I start my story? The answer generally is as close to the action of the events you are describing as possible. Will readers last through 10 pages of background? No. For the reader the story should be a journey of discovery. The story should be grounded in the action with backstory provided as needed for understanding the character’s motivation.
Do you still need the 10 pages of background? Yes. The writer needs to create this to understand the characters and the world they live in. It controls how the characters act, speak and respond to the events in the story.
Hope this helps.
64Fordman
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Thank You 64Fordman, it helped a lot.
As a new story writer, I´d like to find out even some things before banging my head to wall too long.
I thought just about what you said, should the backgrounds be placed in the action instead of writing them in first.
I started this story today, and just been adding to it all evening. I don´t mean there would be a list-like intros, but most of the times like when a character steps in to the story.
I write from the main characters point of view, and like this story what I´m working now, other characters come from the memories of the mc. And those memories tells something about their backgrounds. Also tells something about their previous relationships.
There are some events included all the way, but not "THE action" readers crave.
I don´t know. Maybe it´s me just trying to prove myself to just push on...
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I'd suggest write the story the way it feels most natural to do so and so YOU enjoy reading it. If others do too (and they will) then ding ding ding... BONUS !
Personally, I like stories that evolve so I learn more and more about the characters and their motivations. Oh don't get me wrong... short stories are absolutely great when there is an itch to scratch ;) but my favourite ones are where the story thread has me hungry to read more.
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...short stories are absolutely great when there is an itch to scratch ;) but my favourite ones are where the story thread has me hungry to read more.
Of course, there are a place and time for everything :D
Maybe I just let the flow lead the way and look the results later...
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Hi Harry,
I agree with MsBehavin that you should just write in your own words for now. The only real way to get better at writing is to actually write and keep at it. Your beginning work, like anyone's, will likely be terrible, and that's ok. It only gets not-terrible with practice.
That said, there's still helpful hints to keep in mind as you go. You'll establish your own relationships with the supposed axioms of good writing as you go along. To your specific questions about backstory, its time and place and length: it's important to think about your audience and what that backstory (or any part of your story for that matter) is accomplishing for them.
- Ten pages of character explanation for a 20 page story? That's wasting time. Your characterization should be proportional to your overall plot and your goals for the story. No character can become so complex over ten pages that a reader needs ten MORE pages just to understand them.
- Show, don't tell. Don't spend a paragraph telling me how impatient your character Steve is when instead you can show me Steve being impatient as part of the plot.
- Appropriate order. If you launch into your ten pages on Steve before giving the reader a reason to care about Steve, they will skip those pages or worse, put down the story. In some cases, it may be better to break up that ten pages' worth of material and explain it in pieces as the story unfolds, so each new piece of the puzzle appears as it becomes relevant.
- Consider the idea of Chekhov's Gun, the idea that some element of a story should only be there if it absolutely positively contributes to the overall plot. Everything else should be removed (i.e. if you devote time to describing a gun in your story, that gun better be fired before the story ends). I don't consider this an unbreakable rule myself, but it's a really useful reminder to cut out the fluff in my stories.
- Go back and proofread. Every single story I write has some part that I thought was great when I first wrote it, only for me realize it was monumentally stupid upon further inspection.
- Read other people's work. How do they accomplish the things you want to accomplish?
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Thanks Pensive Pen for comments and thoughts.
We will see what comes out when it´s done. Not before...
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For what it's worth, my usual solution is to start simply, with a name and a basic image, then let the character flesh themselves out with their own words and actions as the story progresses. Backgrounds are described only as and when needed to fit them into context. Then again, I think it's been pretty well decided here in the Forum that I use a very unusual writing style. ;D Also, I tend to focus more on shorter stories, where there's a lot less room for descriptive terms. Still, the best advice I could give has already been given. Write in the style you feel most comfortable with. Put your heart and mind into each word, and it will show, regardless of your writing style. Then, once it's written, send it in. The good people who've already answered this post are people you can trust for good, honest, constructive advice on writing. I've exchanged thoughts on stories with each of them, even if only briefly, and it's helped my writing improve. Trust them, pay attention to what they say, then write the way you feel best. At the risk of creating a mantra, write what you love, love what you write, and everything else will follow.
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At the risk of creating a mantra, write what you love, love what you write, and everything else will follow.
Words of wisdom, thank you too Lobo De la Sombra.
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First part of the story, Fun at the farm, is now complete, double checked and sent to Gromet for consideration.
Hopefully there is a point to continue, though I might finish the story anyways. It took me on its hold from the start, so I can´t just let go...
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One of the (non-sexual) writers I love the most is Alistair McLean. In one story the first page consists of description of a hand holding a Smith&Weston gun - and all the mess the bullet of such a gun can make when it enters a body. In few lines Alistair McLean manages to grab me by the throat and drag me into the action. After the short first chapter, the characters starts to get described - through their actions, their thoughts, their bruises and scars.
Even if this is a completely different genre, I think the strategy holds. As said: "If you need to describe something do it when the reader is ready to read the description". As a writer you're competing against some pretty clever guys - and if your story doesn't get us bonded fast, we might ease out before getting to the core plot. And that would be bad.
Even if all writers are close to being genious it might be worth to read your own story. If you get an urge to skip some part (you do know the characteristics of 'Steve', right?) be sure your readers will too. Your readers just don't know that on the next page you'll grab them by the balls and husle them through the best plot in years. And sadly they might never find out.
Then as said somewhere else: "start writing - your first story may be crap, but then improve in the next one."
TeaSer
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Thanks TeaSer
Well, experience is the best teacher, they say. And I´m sure I will get more as the time goes by.
So far, after finishing my 3rd story, writing has been fun. And though if I´d be the only one who likes my stories, I would continue writing them.
Now, trying to find that "flow" again to start a new tale...
I know there are many things I need to improve, but hey... Maybe with time.
Harry
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I think 64Fordman puts it wonderfully. I agree with him one-hundred percent.
I think the suggestions "to be you" that people give are not strong advice. It's not wrong, but it's not terribly helpful. I mean, you can't be anyone but you. Even if you were trying to copy Lobo's style, if you didn't outright plagiarize him, you'd still be you.
There is no method to "being you", no process you can follow, and no way to check whether you are succeeding at it, because you can't fail, you can only be you. If the advice was not to censor yourself, or to have fun, then it would be more concrete, but still not super-useful, because it's really hard to tell where self-censorship ends and editing begins. Also, personally, I rarely have fun writing, because when I am doing it best, I'm not even conscious I exist. I get my fun later.
There is a nice book. "Fierce on the Page", that you can look up on Amazon, or wherever, and it offers advice on how to "be you", or maybe on "how to be a better you," which I think is worthwhile. If you want to be you, but better, it's worth a read. I'm not sure it helps writing specifically, but it did cheer me up.
If you want to tell a story that people will want to read, then you need to come up with writing good enough to hook readers in so they can't stop. Maybe you can do that with ten pages of set-up, but if you're not that good, maybe you should try something easier, such as starting with some interesting event, and telling a story where something compelling happens as often as possible, and letting us discover the details behind it as we go along.
Personally, I'm terrible at doing all that. In fact, I have a story ready to post to Gromet that really has ten pages of set-up, sort of. But I'm not asking for advice. I got the advice and now I'm willfully ignoring it. This is probably why Steve Spandex has about a thousand readers for every one of mine. But I can't fix that. I can only be me :)
And you can't be either of us. You can only be you...
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I know I can get quite wordy myself, most especially if the characters are not shallow "set pieces" and easily predictable in their actions and they therefore needing a longer intro. I have lately tried telling a story from the middle based on Lobo's suggestion that one could tell a good story from the end in reverse and still make it interesting. Many crime novels and television serials show the crime committed first, and the brilliant detective putting together the clues as he or she solves the mystery along with we the reader, or viewer.
That method seemed like a fun mental challenge in Playing Chauffer, specifically because I had this story in my head for quite some time and couldn't get to the "good parts" in enough time to make it even interesting for me to reread. I had rewritten that particular story in my mind, and at the keyboard, many many times, Lobo's suggestion coming at a most opportune time for me.
I hope this helps and good luck, what we do here after all is supposed to be fun, Jackie.
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I bet Amy has a lot of readers, they don’t leave a comment after reading her story five times to absorb all the nuances she layers in because they would sound like an idiot. But enough about me.
We love you being you Amy, please go on being you.
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I guess that was the point I was trying to make Fordman, although not as articulately as I might have hoped for. Amy's characters are definitely not "set pieces" but rather in depth characters that require some explanation, (as are yours) and therefore chapter space. I struggle with that constantly, and am sympathetic to those that do as well.
Please don't take my comments as criticism toward any author, I personally love the different styles here and wouldn't wish to dissuade any author from contributing, the starting from the middle thing just an experiment that I thought to share if there were interest. In the end it's really the same story, but with the chapters arranged differently, and obviously not applicable to every story here at the plaza.
Best wishes to all, Jackie.
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In case I sounded facetious, I definitely wasn't being negative about Steve Spandex.
I mean it when I put him forward as an example of a writer who produces amusing, accessible work that people cannot stop reading. If you were writing a "how to" book on hooks and suspense, his work would serve as examples better than almost anything I've read. He doesn't start off with padding, or work up to the good bits, he starts with something strong and he keeps on piling in the good stuff. People like his work, they want to read it, and they enjoy it so much that they tell others how much they liked it. Not a lot of people writing erotic bondage stories have that going for them.
Anyone starting out should look at his stories as a great example of how to do it right.
A lot of writers, when the start out, they seem to feel it's necessary to put a mini-bio for all their characters at the front of a story. I think they pick it up from reading other erotic stories that do the same thing. It's amazingly common, almost a genre convention. Mostly, it's unnecessary though.
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I think Amy brings up a brilliant point. When you read a story you really enjoy, think about the techniques the author used to tell the story.
The best writing advice I got was to read like a writer. When I finish a book or story, I go back and consider where the author started the story, how they introduce characters and when and how back story is provided.
I also think about how the author matches style to the character. For example, Robert B. Parker novels are 80% dialogue and that keeps the story moving at a fast pace. His character, Spencer, is a hard driving swing first and ask questions later private detective.
When I decided to try writing erotic fiction, I didn’t need any help with the kink, I had that. It was realizing when I read a story I enjoyed, it wasn’t just the subject that made it enjoyable but the way it was told.
So Harry, whether it’s AmyAmy, jackierabbit, Steve Spandex or Jane Austen, valuable lessons can be retrieved from the work of great writers.