Plaza Forum

Do you prefer stories which are short and to the point or stories which offer details such as; Character Building, Plot Building, Scenario Explaination, Background, etc.?

I tend to fill my stories with details which I believe some to find a bit extraneous. My stories usually end up being around 8,000 words or so, and sometimes seem a bit cut-off at the end to me.

Please let me know what your preferences about the subject.

Dana -- EPL

Apart from the very short 2-3 page category, which is too short to build up a plot with a beginning, middle and ending, I really can't choose between any of the other categories. Stories of different lengths employ a writer's different skills and disciplines, so I tend to read (and write) stories of varying lengths, depending on time available and what mood I'm in.

The most important thing is that the story grabs your attention and keeps you interested.

Steve

I do agree with you on both counts Steve...a story that is too short has no depth, and, a story must grab you and keep you interested and wanting to read on. I am trying to regain some writing skills I lost due to health reasons and am slowly getting there. The stories my mind is wanting to focus on lately is pretty lengthy and I (sometimes) tend to fill them with some extensive background. I was wondering if background and character building turns readers off or helps them grasp the story better.

Dana -- EPL

Quite difficult to create something interesting in a very short space. But after 6-7 pages, usually, it's too long for me.
And if it's not mostly focused on the bondage, sex and fetish aspect, probably I won't even read it.

For me background and character building gives a story more dimensions, more depth and therefore makes the whole thing a lot more enjoyable. Which is probably why I go for lengthier stories  (like the multi-chaptered one I'm involved in creating at the moment) rather than the shorter ones.

But there are obviously other people who don't want that sort of thing, and prefer something short and to the point without too many frills. There is no right or wrong, just personal opinion, and whatever you do, you'll get mixed reactions, I guess.

The only thing to do is stay true to your ideals and just write the way it feels natural to you.

Steve

Quote from: Arkane on October 20, 2016, 08:14:32 PM
And if it's not mostly focused on the bondage, sex and fetish aspect, probably I won't even read it.

I agree with your statement here Arkane. I try to make the plot developement, character development, and background explain the How's, Who's, and Why's of the story and try to get the reader into the psyche of the character's need to be in; or, put someone else in; the situation or scenario. "Sally tied herself up, had an orgasm, then released herself" doesn't hold much for me without knowing something about Sally and why she is into bondage.

Dana -- EPL

Quote from: Steve Spandex on October 20, 2016, 08:37:01 PM
...There is no right or wrong, just personal opinion, and whatever you do, you'll get mixed reactions, I guess.

The only thing to do is stay true to your ideals and just write the way it feels natural to you.

Steve

I completely agree Steve. I too am delving into a very lengthy saga. For the people who are not fond of the manutia of background and information I am including a pre-chapter which can be read or not. Much of the Who, What, Where, Why, and How's are explained in the pre-chapter and will make understanding the main-chapters much easier, but, I am also trying to make each chapter a self-contained story in itself.

Dana -- EPL

Great question Dana. Personally, my answer is it doesn't matter, if I'm enjoying the story I will keep reading. I have read short stories here, Lobo and the late great Lady Jane come to mind, and long stories like Gai-Shift by Rohana (113 chapters and 100,000+ words, that's epic) and enjoyed them all.

For that reason I found it difficult vote in the poll, but I will say this. I'm not into latex, spandex or pony play for example, but I've read stories based on those fetishes I have enjoyed because the author created characters I was compelled to follow through their journey. That's great writing no matter how many words they use.

Fordman

Hey Dana,
I've been thinking since I first read this post, and I really can't weigh in on the poll.  I don't read as much as I used to, so I really can't say much from the perspective.  As a writer, most of my stories come in more on the short end, anywhere from 2000-2500  to 7000-8000 words, give or take.  Even my longer stories are presented in short chapters, each one more or less direct to the point that particular chapter is meant to add to the overall story.  I've seen the comment made before that shorter stories are the hardest to write because you have to tell a complete story in a relatively few words.  Thing is, both long and short stories have something to offer.  True, shorter stories give you less room for plot or character development, which means they tend to be more action-oriented.  That in itself is one of the appealing aspects of a short story, the fact that things start happening right off, and continue to happen all the way through.  Longer stories, on the other hand, make it very hard to maintain a hard, driving pace throughout.  On the flip side, a longer story gives you the chance to do a more complex, more complete, development of characters, environments and situations.  Both types, as well as everything in between, have pros and cons, and every variety has its fans.  Which makes you the deciding factor.  Write within your own comfort zone as far as length and development are concerned, and there's a good chance you'll find readers who have a similar comfort zone for story preferences.  If you're lucky enough to get feedback on a story, use that to help you develop your writing for future stories, but stay within what you feel comfortable doing.  And never forget, you will always be your own worst critic.

I prefer stories that are good, which can be made at a variety of lengths. And like a good recipe, the quality of a story (in my view) is not in the raw quantities of the ingredients--the sex, character development, plot, prose, etc--but in how they interact with one another to form a satisfying balance.

Short stories definitely can't fit in as much, say, character development, just as a smaller cake can't fit in as much flour. But that's not really important so long as there's enough character development to serve the purpose of the story, which for me is to create something meaningful. In my view, that means characters who have thoughts, wants, and motivations. They are more than just warm bodies that sex or bondage happens to. It means plots that show or at least imply progression. On this site, it means bondage that is more than sexy--a creative expression that fits the characters and plot. And, frankly, it means some good faith diligence and attention to detail on the author's part. I won't put effort into a story when it's clear the author couldn't even be bothered to put effort into it.

Honestly, the story should determine the length. Figure out what you want to say and what's required to say it. Whatever length accomplishes your goal with the most efficiency and flow is the best one.

Thanks for the input Fordman, Lobo, Pensive.

I'm starting to believe I should've run this poll as a question regarding developement quantity instead of length. I enjoy developement of the 'four W's' in the stories I read and feel I am being lazy with the stories I write if I don't develope them.

I posed these recent polls because my current idea's have been forming as stories too long to tell in a single chapter of a length to fit into a comfortable reading time.

I enjoy writing stories which have substance as much as action. How the protagonist feels about what is, has, or will happen, and, the 'how's and why's' it is, has, or will. I believe bondage is just as much a mental experience as a physical one and believe it to be impossible (as much as anything is or can be impossible) to explain the mental without character developement.

Also, as a person who can't enjoy too many movies which are too far outside the realm of physics, I try to stay within the boundries of reality as much as possible. Many of the props I put in my stories simply haven't been designed and built but there is no physics reason they can't be. I would love to utilize cuffs which magnetically and forcefully connect from two feet apart, but physics of magnatism don't allow it and I feel as if I am cheating if I use something of such. I know I am limiting my story base by not writing of such, but, like you all said in your responses, write within my comfort level. It's why I am not a fan of vore, giant(ess), transformation, and stories of kind. I guess I would fit into Einstein's job he had when he wrote about Special Relativity.  ;D

I believe that short or long stories can be entertaining and the former can have character developement, but at the cost of complexity of the plot and visa-versa.

The long story I am working on now, 'Isla de BDSM', (coming soon to a website near you) can be a never-ending saga based on its premise. How long I write upon it, only the story can tell as I rarely know the exact end of any of my stories. I let them write and progress themselves. When published and offered, the ending of 'Selma's Recollection' surprised even myself. I had no idea it would end up the way it did when I began to write it.

As for feedback on my stories...I now understand how rare it is as most of our readers are not members and can't post feedback. I also know that out of our member base, only about a quarter has ever posted a comment of any type. Even introductions. The comments I have received on my stories have been greatly appreciated and enlightening, giving me excellent insight of what the reader thought and well received criticism and/or advice when offered. Most posts being from other authors I can only hope to match.

Thanks for your inputs. I will put them to good use as I clack along and tell my tales.

Dana -- EPL

Hi Dana,

As a science fiction fan, my advice is never let your stories be controlled by reality. Did Einstein develop the Theory of Relativity in 1905 out of the blue, or after he read The Time Machine by H. G. Wells published in 1895. In 1870 Jules Verne described a submarine in 20,000 Leagues under the Sea with an unnamed power source that provided propulsion, heat, light and oxygen. Was he envisioning a nuclear reactor?

In the real world every time a Jedi activated their light saber it would puncture the pressure hull and kill everybody in explosive decompression, did anybody in Star Wars explain how a beam of light magically stops at 36 inches, no. The 'thing' in your story doesn't have to make sense in our world as long as it makes sense in the world your characters live in. Go ahead and use those magnetic cuffs, maybe some engineer will be inspired by your writing.

Fordman

Hey Fordman...and thanks.

One of my things is that I am not especially a fan of much science fiction unless most of it can be explained through physics. Of late, The Martian being one of them. I enjoyed it because it stuck to what physics allows. Even when I seen Star Wars as a kid when it first came out I was not moved by it much and the light saber, was in fact, one of the things I had a problem with. I remember really liking Princess Leah however. But, I enjoy Star Trek (old movies and series') and Stephen King's writings, and both those stomp all over physics. I know...I'm a confused individual.

I get criticized all the time for being so picky on my entertainment choices and being unwilling to watch and enjoy movies because I find elements in them which fall outside the realms of reality. My sister and her fiance took me to see the new Jason Bourne movie knowing I had been a huge fan of the previous three. She knew, by my previous physics bitching, that one scene in it may get my goat. On the way to our cars she asked me how I liked it and I brought up the scene. "It was great other than..." I said. "I knew it! I knew it would get to you!" She replied. Stoicihometery in The Borne Supremacy and the time it would take to reach an explosive air-to-fuel ratio was its hiccup for me. Like I said...I'm a strange one. FYI--I am purposely being vague about scenes as I don't like people who spoil scenes to movies I haven't seen.

Believe me...I wish I could change. But when a sci-fi movie has a huge fireball and loud explosion in the vacuum of space, or, a person shot gets thrown back 5 or 10 feet but the shooter remains upright and steady, or, a truck plows through twenty cars, tosses them up in the air, and continues as if each car was a mere bump it the road; I get bothered by it and generally turned off of the movie. I know a spacecraft being blasted out of space in a silent poof with a barely visible or non-existant fire would turn many more viewers off than my overly-critical eye, but I can't help it.

I am trying to incorporate a little writer's discretion into a few more of my stories as I tredge along, but again, I write about what I enjoy and because I enjoy it and if there are too many elements of unrealistically plausible events, I lose interest in my own story as quickly as I lose interest in writer's and/or producer's movie.

For me at least; when you're a nineteen year old team-leader and you send a buddy home in a coffin three days after having a beer with him and wonder what you could've done differently to enjoy a beer with him four days after the last time...reality becomes a whole bunch more important. Again, to me it did.

I will try Fordman and broaden my way of incorporating some physics-probable elements into my stories. It just may take some time and many more stories.

Dana -- EPL

Hey Dana,
Something you might want to consider where your writing is concerned.  In a way, writing has one very important aspect in common with the subject matter here.  In writing, as in BDSM, one of the most important considerations is boundaries, limits.  You don't break limits, and you never ignore them.  What you do is work to expand them at whatever pace is most comfortable.  You write what, and how, you are most comfortable.  Once you have that part down, then you decide if and how you want to expand your comfort zone.  Realism is important, and I also tend to make things as realistic and believable as possible, like not making someone bend in a way the human body was never intended to.  True, a lot of my stories involve magic, or some undefined technology that allows things that, in the real world of here and now, are nowhere near possible.  Those stories tend towards what I've heard called the willing suspension of disbelief.   As in, yes, I know this isn't possible, but what if it were?  Of course, that's my writing style.  Your style, the things you write about, are for you to choose, so choose the things you feel comfortable with.  If you can't accept what you've written, you can't ask readers to accept it either.

Side note, if you're looking for something realistic, or at least partially, in science fiction, watch the television series Firefly.  They only did 14 episodes, but it later became a cult favorite, to the point where they made a movie called Serenity to finish the story.  If you prefer shows that follow the laws of physics, I think you'll like that one.

Thanks Lobo.

I do, somewhat, wish to broaden my writing to allow for more readers to enjoy my work. Hence, Precious Marissa and the soon to be posted Precious Marissa: Marissa. I believe I pushed the lines of Medical Malpractice a bit in them and, initially, found it difficult to do. The Blackberry Patch crossed my lines of decency quite a bit as well. I had to let the story tell the end of it for a logical way for Angela to find a postage stamp in a football field while comprimised in movement and sight while being tortured.

When finished, Drone Trek will be my most line-pushing work yet with regard to 'can it be done?'. Physics does not prevent it, nor does today's technology (another hence, why I wanted but didn't include the magnetic cuffs I mentioned earlier, but would make some of the story easier to write). But, a single persons' ability to clandestinely acquire the items the story uses would be difficult to conceive. I sure don't know who could make them or where I could get some of them made.

I appreciate you telling me to stay true to my writing Lobo. Though I see Fordman's side of it too. It's fiction and fiction knows no bounds. But for the last 30 1/2 years since I made a decision that ended up taking a friends life, causing me to take yet another life, and changed mine forever; I have walked a very tight line between reality and fiction. It's a long-lived habit to break, but the walls need to come down eventually. So I am taking baby-steps to broaden my horizons.

Again, thanks Lobo and Fordman for helping me see both sides of a very tall wall I have had around me.

P.S. I will have to check out Firefly and Serenity. If you were to ask me...it only ran for 14 episodes because it stayed within the laws of physics. Society simply doesn't care about what is real or not real as long as there are huge explosions, full-auto machine-guns that shoot for two minutes straight with a 30 round clip and never needs changed (My M-16 was good for about six seconds on rock-and-roll with a thrity round mag...not to mention that it climbed terribly up and to the left no matter how hard I tried to prevent it from a standing position), or a .45 Colt that throws someone five-feet backwards. Just my opinion though.

Dana -- EPL

I don't care how long a story is if it's interesting. That's all that matters. The interest can be generated by characters, subject matter, whatever. My most recent posting here is my shortest yet. To my mind, the few paragraphs were all it took to convey what I wanted to say. The rest of the tale was meant to be filled in by the reader's imagination. As usual, it received very little feedback (thanks Dana!) but I was pleased with it. On the other hand, there are some long multi-part stories (the latest from Steve Spandex comes to mind) that would suffer greatly from being shortened.

Max

Quote from: ElectroPainLover on October 21, 2016, 08:36:40 PM
One of my things is that I am not especially a fan of much science fiction unless most of it can be explained through physics.

I agree.

I don't want to derail the thread but "realism" is another issue for me. It's not that I'm absolutely against a fantastic setting, but if I'm reading  a kink story the fantastic element deviates from the main theme (kink), and I don't want this. (The same if a long preamble or digression brings me to some boring details that are not so relevant, and so on).
I can relate if a character is subject to bondage or a painful punishment. Even electrical stimulation is already irrelevant to me (I never experienced it at a painful level so I can't imagine it). A suffering induced by magic, for example, isn't interesting at all in my opinion, unless it's told in a way I can relate to it in the real world.
A world of orks and fairies probably will be un-erotic for me, and I won't read any of it if something bondage or kinky related doesn't appear in the first paragraphs. No Lord of the Rings in bondage, no Star Wars in slavery, thanks. Not for me, at least.

Exceptions may exist, but I prefer my bondage fiction reasonably short and right to the point.

Thanks Max. And, you are very welcome.

Anymore, I will always respond to a story I have read; good, bad, or indifferent. I have found that even old stories get a new spark by a recent reply to them.

I can only hope the stories I write are interesting to my readers. I assure you they are interesting to me when I write them and remain so when I re-read them once they have been out of my mind for some time. I write, for the most part, about what I enjoy and fantacize about. I will step outside of my bounds on occassion as the story requires, but, mainly as a means-to-an-end to meet my requirements to maintain a sentiment of realism.

Though I am admittedly trying to open my mind to allow for a little less strict-line realism, I doubt you will ever read a story by me which includes out-right anti-physics stories, stories of potions or magic, Giantess stories, or plant or person vore stories. Again, I write about my interests and I have not found those to be particularly interesting or of my particular taste.

Thanks again, as always Max.
Dana -- EPL


Thank you Arkane.

Unfortunately, I find it much too difficult to jump immediately into the meat-and-potatoes without enjoying a pre-dinner salad first in my writings. I have to give some background to inspire myself and set the pace and particulars of the story. I am saddened that this style turns you away for the most part. I have tried to jump right in and skip the preliminaries but am rarely happy with the progression of the story afterwards. My Halloween story incorporates the trick of starting some time into the story, then, returning to the beginning to fill in the background. I may also use this technique for future stories. But, like Fordman, Lobo, Steve Spandex, and a few others (sorry if I have forgotten you) have told me...write about what you like and how you feel comfortable telling it. I have taken their advise to heart and have been following it.

I doubt you will ever be disappointed by my lack of keeping quite close to realism within my stories Arkane, but that is only if you can get past my opening babble to set the stories characters, scene, background, and other elements I wish to present as a guide for the rest of the story.

Thank you for the comments.
Dana -- EPL

Regarding realism: I strongly believe in the suspension of disbelief and therefore I'm also not overly concerned with the verisimilitude of a story. If there are FTL spaceships, dragons, improbably beautiful and impassioned princesses, masked avengers and disfigured arch villains figuring in a story, I just take them as the usual props populating a certain genre.
What I do appreciate, however, is consistency and plausibility within the framework of "reality" as defined by the story itself. In this respect, I feel that magic or technology so advanced it's nearly magical pose a challenge, since without clearly and logically defined limits for their application, the reader/viewer is constantly wondering why the problem at hand can't be solved by these means (StarTrek springs to mind and the myriad of "reasons" they have to invent why the transporter can't pull the protagonists out of harm's way just right now but only when hope's almost lost).
Also, and most importantly, the motivations of the characters – although maybe exceptional – should be at least discernible. I personally find it hard to emotionally invest into characters whose actions appear completely random to me.

Without wanting to restart a fruitless debate, can I please have some guidelines to just when a story is a story - and not a novel.

This becomes more queer as in danish a novel is a short book - like 10-15 pages. A book is more likely 150 pages. Then a story? How long is that? And given some of the scenes at just a few pages - how should those be named?

Of course you might say it's irrelevant, but for me it does matter: If I know I'm going to read a scene, I'll be happy to add my own imagination to it. However if I expect it to be a longer story, I feel disappointed if things are too schematic - just hinting what's going on. And of course if it's a long story, I most likely will bookmark it and read it when I do have the time to take larger chomps of text.

And really - when answering the questionaire I had to imagine some 'standard' reading situation - both longer and shorter stories works for me too.

TeaSer

I don't know what they do in Europe, but American publishers use four categories:

Short story: Under 7,500 words
Novelette: 7,500 to 17,500 words
Novella: 17,500 to 40,000 words
Novel: Over 40,000 words

Not sure how this applies here, but there you go.

Thank you absolutist.

I think you and I agree on the purpose of a story if not exactly on the means to tell it. I need the story to be logically plausible and the characters to be as well. My understanding of your tastes is that the characters and props can be what they are as long as the plot holds a bit to reality.

Character motivation and desire is why I like to 'set the stage', so to speak, with background and character development. If I delve too quickly into the happenings I feel I leave too big of hole to expect the readers to fill in for themselves. Also, in all honesty, it makes it easier for me to accidently stray away from the original story I wanted to tell in the first place. I need to be able to form a picture of my character and their history and motivations to hold to my story line. This, I know is my own shortfalling but I do no justice to my writings or their readers if the story hops around too much or becomes too non-linear as it progresses. It has caused me to leave out important factors I missed in writing and editing and posting a story missing something I meant to have in.

Thanks again for your idea's of an enjoyable story.
Dana -- EPL


Thanks for the points TeaSer.

My understanding of the lengths of writings may be all-wet but have been formed by my reading over the years. Here is my understanding;

Story/Tale: A short writing of a basis or plot. One paragraph to several pages. (An essay)

Novella: A short story or novel. An abridged book. Several pages to fifty or sixty pages. (A short tale not having too much depth of twist or chapter hopping)

Novel: A short book or collection of novella's. Seventy, or so, to a couple hundred pages. (A lengthy and descriptive tale with possibly a few side stories within the chapters...Collection of novella's such as The Bachman Four which included; Road Work, Rage, The Long Walk, and Thinner; while Stephen King wrote under the pen-name of Richard Bachman).

Book: Sometimes called a Full-Length Novel. Usually two hundred-fify pages to four hundred pages. Several novella's in a collection. (A lengthy story which provides in-depth descripts of people, places, things, and events. Sometimes several small sub-stories which all tie together at the end. The most popular length of popular writer's and publishers).

Epic: A long book. Four hundred to a thousand or more pages. (A highly descriptive and complex storyline. War and Peace by Leo Tulstoy, It by Stephen King).

Saga: A collection of any of the previous which follow the same characters and general plot. Could be several books and/or several thousand pages long. Harry Potter by J. K. Rowling, The Dark Tower by Stephen King, The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tokien).

Again, this is my understanding and personal description of the lengths of written texts. I am sure there is a fairly well defined definition and/or tighter outlined explaination of the differences or more classifications. I am working from my personal experience as a long-time reader. Though in the poll I offered, I adjusted story lengths based upon the typical writings found on Gromet's Plaza.

Thanks,
Dana -- EPL

Quote from: 64Fordman on October 22, 2016, 11:59:48 PM
I don't know what they do in Europe, but American publishers use four categories:

Short story: Under 7,500 words
Novelette: 7,500 to 17,500 words
Novella: 17,500 to 40,000 words
Novel: Over 40,000 words

Not sure how this applies here, but there you go.

I knew there had to be defined parameters. Thanks Fordman.

Dana -- EPL

Quote from: ElectroPainLover on October 22, 2016, 08:40:31 PM
Unfortunately, I find it much too difficult to jump immediately into the meat-and-potatoes without enjoying a pre-dinner salad first in my writings. I have to give some background to inspire myself and set the pace and particulars of the story. I am saddened that this style turns you away for the most part. I have tried to jump right in and skip the preliminaries but am rarely happy with the progression of the story afterwards. My Halloween story incorporates the trick of starting some time into the story, then, returning to the beginning to fill in the background. I may also use this technique for future stories.

While I didn't mean that I don't want an established context (I just get bored if this part is too long) it's a well known narrative trick to start the story "in media res" that is, in the middle of the action, using then flashbacks and other techniques to give the needed background. I see you're well aware of that.

Another trick is to mix the details and the background in the action. It can be done always, even in a short story. A very good example of this can be found here in the Plaza: http://www.boundstories.net/storieslr/purepulp_hannahobutton.html
I can concede the characters get very little physical description, but in just a little more than 2000 words you learn a lot on these two women, they meet in a hurry, they need to dress up for work, they know each other for some time. The bindee is bold in her dressing for pleasure choices and is not shy about asking for extreme bondage, maybe pushing herself too much. The binder is maternal and cautious but when the action start she's revealed as a stern disciplinarian, quelling pleas for mercy with severe bondage; then while quietly reading a book she adds another level of torment with the casual action of pressing again the button (the bound woman gave her this power but didn't ask to be repeatedly tormented with it). Probably there's everything we need to know but the story has no preamble at all.

Hi Arkane.

I get what you're saying and desire. I try to use some of the techniques you refer to, though I admit I didn't know it was called "in media res" but have seen the style. Usually in novel's I see it by chapter. I am a 'linear' thinker. A mild stroke a few years back has really played with my memory...especially short-term...and the doctor said my brain may or may not compensate for the damage. I believe it is. And, the more I write, it seems, the more it adjusts. That is why I am starting to broaden my writing style a little. I had struggled to come up with new idea's for stories and now new stories are flooding in. However, the stories seem to be quite involved and lengthy for me to tell...correctly in my opinion.

I want to to stop being so linear and time-line oriented on every story also. It is my next battle to take on to reroute some neurons. As an amature writer, I have to learn and learn to adjust. Both have been difficult but not unable to achieve.

Thanks for your input Arkane. It helps me more than you may realize by showing me areas to work upon.

Dana -- EPL

Quote from: ElectroPainLover on October 23, 2016, 04:30:01 PM

Thanks for your input Arkane. It helps me more than you may realize by showing me areas to work upon.

Dana -- EPL

You're welcome, and I think trying to learn writing techniques is very stimulating, and not the inspiration-killer some think.
Anyway I was just speaking about my tastes.

And I enjoy learning what you, and others, tastes are. Hence the polls  ;D .

Thank you for enlightening me of the stories you like to read. It does help me as a writer.

Dana -- EPL

PS - Thank you for linking Pensive's story...it was a great read!

Over 5000 words is "Long"? Seriously?